A major thank you to Mary Hunt for sharing this excellent presentation on women deacons with Phyllis Zagano
(Orbis Books, 2026, $20)
Wednesday, June 13, 2026, 1 PM ET
WATER thanks Phyllis Zagano for a fruitful discussion of her latest book, The Vatican and Women Deacons, (Orbis Books, 2026). It is an important publication which records the history of a protracted and complicated debate.
The video can be found at https://youtu.be/1dgM9t2CxOc .
The program began with a land acknowledgement, as is WATER’s custom, to keep us focused on why we do educational work for social change. We also acknowledged the difficult moment in which we find ourselves as citizens of the world as wars rage and human and planetary rights are violated worldwide. WATER’s commitment to non-violent efforts to stem the tide is shared by so many people. Let our hour of study and discussion today be directed toward peace and wellbeing.
Mary E. Hunt introduced Phyllis Zagano.
WATER welcomes Phyllis Zagano who served on the First Papal Commission (2016-2018) dealing with the question of women deacons.
Let me introduce you, Phyllis, by reading from your wonderful book, The Vatican and Women Deacons, (Orbis Books, 2026) from which I learned a lot about contemporary ecclesiology, not all of which is pretty. But it was fun to find a tidbit on p. 120 in a chapter that includes mention of the final luncheon of the Commission. Pope Francis “approached the table and informally thanked the commissioners…The pope also asked who the first deaconess would be. The commissioners pointed to Zagano.”
So, despite the fact that the Commission could not agree on whether or not to reinstitute the diaconate for women, they could at least agree that Phyllis was the prototype. This work on the diaconate is not simply an academic exercise for Phyllis, but something to which she feels called.
Dr. Phyllis Zagano is an internationally recognized Catholic scholar and lecturer on contemporary spirituality and women's issues in the church with a singular, laser focus on women in the diaconate.
As we wrote in our WATER blurb about the book, “When Roman Catholic women are ordained as deacons, Phyllis Zagano will be credited with the win. Her meticulous scholarship and tireless chronicling of a process that never should have taken this much time and this much wrangling will be the documents of record.” That is the book we discuss today, though it is likely that most of us will not live to see women deacons. But those who do can thank Phyllis for serving up their church history on a silver tray.
Phyllis’ extensive bio is on the Hofstra University website where she is Senior Research Associate-in-Residence and Adjunct Professor of Religion. She received a B.A. from Marymount College, Tarrytown, NY; three master’s degrees in communications (Boston University), literature (Long Island University), and theology (St. John’s University), and a Ph.D. in Religion and Literature from the State University of New York at Stony Brook.
Dr. Zagano is the author or editor of more than twenty-seven books in religious studies, including Holy Saturday: An Argument for the Restoration of the Female Diaconate in the Catholic Church(Crossroad, 2000) and Just Church: Catholic Social Teaching, Synodality, and Women (Paulist Press, 2023). She has not tired of the topic. With each successive publication, including today’s book, it is clearer and clearer that the case against “providing the possibility of women as persons being included in all ministries in our church,” as St. Sr. Theresa Kane put it so memorably, is weaker and more pathetic. Phyllis has the rare ability to communicate erudite scholarship in readable, accessible prose. This book is a persuasive argument for the commonsense practice of including all who wish to serve.
Phyllis lectures widely at universities, conferences, churches, places where people are interested in solid theology, clear presentation, and fair-minded debate. These are the hallmarks of her work which she shares with us today. Thank you, Phyllis, we are in your debt.
Dr. Zagano’s remarks can best be accessed on the video. She covered broad and deep terrain, summarizing each of the 15 sections of the book. Rather than risk misinterpreting her, we suggest people watch the video and read the book.
What becomes obvious in the telling of the story of women and the diaconate is that history will not settle the question one way or another. Also, kicking the can down the street to another Pope (AKA, the Magisterium) will not work much longer.
The Roman Catholic Church needs deacons, not just for women to serve women, but for women and men and non-binary people to serve the world. Insofar as this does not happen because women are not considered to image Christ, the institutional Church bears responsibility for the many ways in which women are discriminated against in society.
Phyllis sees several options, including bishops exercising a local authority to ordain women in their dioceses while not expecting other bishops to do the same. Pope Leo speaks of “culture” as the barrier to women deacons, as if certain countries and regions are not “ready” to accept women deacons. But the major country having trouble with a “culture“ of equality is not in Africa or Latin America, but is a 109-acre city-state in Rome called the Vatican.
Discussion ensued with Phyllis Zagano (PZ) on this very important volume.
1. The Moderator, Mary E. Hunt, opined just how corrupt the whole thing is.
Perfectly reasonable strategies are met with opposition. For example, acknowledging that history is not dipositive one way or the other, and then attempting to change the focus from whether women were ordained or not to the fact that the world needs deacons makes sense. Logic would dictate that an organization that seeks to do good in the world would welcome people who want to help others. What is so problematic about this? Where is the opposition most deeply rooted?
The Moderator noted that Pope Benedict XVI, in a motu proprio Omnium in Mentem, on Canon 1008 §3 said: “Those who are constituted in the order of episcopate or presbyterate receive the office and faculty of acting in the person of Christ the Head, while deacons receive the power to serve the people of God in the diaconia of liturgy, word and charity."[3] This seems to have been a step backward as the Canon earlier referred to all three - deacon, priest, bishop - as acting “in persona Christi.” Do male deacons know they got a demotion? Was this an effort to stave off the possibility of women deacons?
PZ reminded that 36 popes were never priested. The cursus honorum was instituted such that deaconate preceded presbyterate. Benedict XVI was forced to say the deaconate was not the priesthood. In light of this seemingly two-track approach, it is inexplicable why women are still left aside. As one wise nun said thirty years ago, “They can’t say no, but they don’t want to say yes.“
Installing women as Lectors, Acolytes, Catechists would help. Seeing women in albs as Lectors will help to accustom people to the ministry of women. Likewise, if the Catechist is to be a teacher it would seem obvious that women Catechists could preach.
Synodality and subsidiarity go together to make it possible for some dioceses to operate differently than others. So all bishops would be not compelled to ordain women deacons. At the same time, bishops would not be constrained from doing so as they seem to be now.
2. A questioner asked about the connection between baptism and ordination.
PZ replied that in the 17th century there was a discussion in Europe about whether women were the same species as men. Even though women are baptized, apparently there are those who consider women and men quite different.
Priesthood is a discussion which PZ virtually never enters. There is however, no official teaching on deacons; the question is left to the Magisterium to decide.
There is a significant anthropological problem with women being ordained, for reasons that remain obscure. Women religious picked up the diaconal ministry as the deaconate faded (Catherine of Siena, Mary Ward, and others.). There is also confusion about consecrated life and the office of deacon. One does not replace the other. They are quite separate, all women being lay people. Married women as deacons raise the issue of women being under both a bishop and a husband! Imagine such thinking!!
3. Another person asked if women can’t image Christ simply because they are not men.
PZ affirmed that it is that simple, a naive physicalism according to Elizabeth Johnson, and Arianism according to PZ. The Moderator added that it is useful to be very clear on this matter to help people see the absurdity: “Priest, penis, patriarchy” is the formula. Such a stark way of articulating the matter gets the attention of those who don’t know or can’t face the pathetic arguments that stand in the way of full personhood for women.
PZ mentioned a male priest in Colorado who had Gender Affirming Surgery and could no longer be a priest. This is an example of what the Church’s view does to its own people, including those it has trained and ordained.
4. A participant asked PZ to say more about what she means by culture.
She said what Pope Leo means by culture is what lies is between him and a decision on women deacons. PZ reported that at the Synod it was clear that in many cultures where women can’t drive or go out of the house without a man it would be a major shift to have women deacons.
Some years ago, theologian Sara Butler said women deacons only ministered to women. PZasked her who ministers to women now.
5. The same questioner asked how colonialism has shaped many African contexts.
Some very progressive feminist scholarship has emerged from Africa. For example, “Nego‐Feminism: Theorizing, Practicing, and Pruning Africa’s Way” by Obioma Nnaemeka, (Signs, Volume 29, Number 2, Winter 2004, Development Cultures: New Environments, New Realities, New Strategies. Special Issue Editors Françoise Lionnet, Obioma Nnaemeka, Susan H. Perry, and Celeste Schenck).
PZ talked about the ordination in 2024 of a Greek Orthodox woman dean in Harare, Zimbabwe. This was done with full knowledge of the authorities and using the exact ceremony used for men but with female pronouns. It was said that the woman was told not to serve at the altar given longstanding blood-based taboos. Those are not Greek in origin, but the result of colonialism. PZ suggested that American money is pressuring the Greek church on this point.
PZ also reference her own unrecorded talk, “Management not Ministry” as a source on the question of why women are being given administrative posts by the Pope though not ordination. The taboos on women are deep and longstanding. For example, there is still a law on the Vatican books that no choirs including women singers can sing from within the sanctuary. That practice continues to the present in the Vatican if not elsewhere.
See also PZ’s article on “Clerical Narcissism” for an explanation of how that phenomenon plays in the contemporary church.
https://flashesinsight.com/2026/04/14/when-clericalism-becomes-narcissism-the-altar-turns-into-a-stage/
6. The Moderator suggested that putting women in administration seems to the current strategy to keep women ordained to anything.
Pope Leo has made clear that little will change on his watch. As if to prove that, he just appointed as the Head of Vatican Communications a woman who led the Eternal Word Television Network which is a well-funded anti-woman media outlet. This woman worked for the Becket Fund which has a hideous track record funding cases like Hobby Lobby that took birth control away from thousands of employees of private companies.
While communications people have some leeway on spin, they essentially convey the message of the corporate heads. Women as effective carriers of men’s messages are not new. Moreover, putting women in administration seems a very effective way of making it seem as if women have power, when in fact they are simply doing what they are told by those who do have power. Never underestimate the Vatican’s ability to hold the line against women. But putting women in high positions who will act against many women’s best interests is a new low. If progressive women hadn’t carried on about women priests and deacons it never would have occurred to Vatican officials to put women into administration. How ironic and perverse. We cannot control who will use the space we create.
PZ suggested that Rome is looking to placate Right Wing, monied Catholics with such appointments. She observed that on the management side it takes a long time while on the ministry side even longer.
7. The Moderator floated another idea.
Given the lack of movement on the deaconate, what about taking a different tack and ignoring the matter of ordination and putting the focus on meeting the needs of the world (not the failings of the church) and insisting that women doing service/diaconal ministry are trained, paid, and promoted? That would keep most dioceses busy, especially if women would say no to working for free or peanuts. A new MA program is developing in Synodal Leadership at the Jesuit School of Theology at the University of Santa Clara with collaboration from the Hilton Foundation. Why would any woman do that? PZ cites a study in her book of happy young male priests who would encourage young men to join them and young women (e.g., Tricia Bruce) who say “run the other way” to those who might want to be in ministry.
PZ reported that as part of a five-year plan at JST-SC there is a program for training women deacons. A helpful comment by a theologian at the Synod in response to the notion that the idea of women deacons was not “ripe” was to observe that sometimes fruit gets overripe and therefore cannot be eaten. Might the deaconate for women question be moving rapidly in this direction?
8. PZ also lifted up the role of women as parish life coordinators.
While they are not ordained, they are in many cases the administrators of parishes who sometimes select the priests who minster. This is like an office manager who runs the organizations. Some of these women do not have a vocation to be deacons or priests; others might.
9. PZ notes that bishops will be lucky to find women to work with them under current conditions.
In fact, many women are leaving the Roman Catholic Church with their husbands, children, and checkbooks. The Moderator said that WATER helps women see and seek alternatives. Women in religious communities picked up diaconal work and set up their own health and educational institutions in which to do it. Those with such institutions have financial resources. But it is a growing scandal that many aging women religious have limited money. The use and abuse of women religious by the institutional church is on display here.
10. A woman priest, ordained more than 40 years ago by a local community, spoke appreciatively of PZ’s work.
She is grateful for PZ’s depth and breadth of knowledge. Still, the whole thing is worthy of a primal scream given how unnecessarily protracted the discussion has been.
Conclusion:
WATER thanks Phyllis Zagano for giving us our history between soft covers. We heartily recommend this book especially for:
--theology classes on contemporary ecclesiology for which it offers a cautionary tale
--parish/community study groups about how Catholic Church change happens (or doesn’t) to ground realistic expectations given the persistent patriarchal structure
--individual study to realize that “what comes from the Holy Spirit cannot be stopped” (oft quoted from the Final Document of the Synod). Mary E. Hunt added a phrase to that quote: “that what doesn’tcome from the Holy Spirit has to be stopped.” Or, as the Irish say—they’ve made a dog’s dinner of it in the case of the case of women deacons.
A needy world requires and deserves more and better from the Catholic community. That means “women in all ministries of our church” as per Theresa Kane. That’s what Dr. Phyllis Zagano is doing. WATER thanks her and wishes her well.
